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Church
The Lost Art of Conversation
by
Kirstin Vander Giessen-Reitsma
I was talking with our landlady the other day—I would guess she’s in her mid to late fifties—and she relayed how she had gone to a local coffee shop hoping to find some impromptu conversation, only to find all of the patrons engrossed in their laptops. There were plenty of people, but there was no conversation to be had that day at one of the neighborhood’s most popular public gathering places.
Now, I can’t demonize technology as the evil crowbar that has wedged us all apart from one another against our wills. Indeed, my own personal experience and my work with
*culture is not optional
has shown that people are making meaningful connections through technology. I interact with my sister a lot more now that she has e-mail. I’ve made dear friends through our online magazine whom I’ve never met in person. Through blogs, I’ll maintain a connection with neighborhood friends who are taking a journey around the world on the way to their new overseas home. However, one of the side effects of these virtual connections may be my generation’s disturbingly anemic skills for face-to-face conversation.
I suspect that one of the causes is that our culture tends to be both over-sexualized and afraid of talking about sex. Comedian
Eddie Izzard
, who’s quite known for his ‘objectionable subject matter’ (he’s intelligently hilarious, but don’t listen to him too loudly with your windows open, you know?), makes the observation in his
"Dress to Kill"
routine that even an invitation to have a cup of coffee can contain sexual innuendo:
…when we become more mature, we have that line, where if you're talking to someone, getting on well, you can say that great line, "Do you want a cup of coffee?" And if they go, "Ah… yeah, okay," then sex is on, yeah? That's the unwritten rule.
Of course, he’s exaggerating for the sake of comedy, but if you walk into a coffee shop or a bar alone and strike up a conversation with a stranger of the opposite sex (or even of the same sex), the question hovers in the air: “What does this person want with me?” Even if the assumption isn’t related to sex or a romantic relationship, we still might instinctively wonder if it’s some form of interpersonal spam. I remember being disappointed when the first unexpected knock on the door of our new home turned out to be a door-to-door sales call. I actually greeted the person as if he were a neighbor coming over to introduce himself, but that experience taught me to check that kind of ridiculous hope. Being in public places self-consciously engrossed in a book or a computer distances us, for better or worse, from disappointment and embarrassment. In so many ways, striking up a conversation with a stranger is just too risky.
And so we find a need to ‘program’ our lives more and more to make up for what we’ve lost in the way of conversation. Book clubs, discussion groups, salons, adult education classes, group therapy—these things all have their benefits, but how much do they substitute for that which used to occur naturally in pubs, post offices, parks, busses, local groceries and coffee shops?
On both sides of my family, it’s always been a bit of an inside joke that going anywhere with a patriarch will see you waiting in the car while he chats up a waitress or a clerk or the person behind him in line. Whether it was in Walgreens or on his golf cart shuttling elderly patients from the parking lot to the hospital, my Grandpa Hank could find something to talk about with everyone. Likewise, Grandpa Duke was often the last one out of church on Sunday due to his voracious appetite for talking and he has initiated conversations with interesting strangers from Hawaii to Holland. Though we all find this quality endearing in the end, it remains a joke—and I wonder if that is so out of our discomfort, because we’re somewhat frightened that we younger generations have suffered a permanent, alienating loss.
In an age of increasing diversity and stronger calls for tolerance, we are further and further from knowing the stories of the people with whom our paths cross only once in a lifetime or daily. Instead, we converse more and more only with those with whom we share particular interests, becoming pot bound as our roots circle in on themselves. Even online, we search the vastness for someone who, from what we can tell from his or her Facebook profile or site membership or blog, has something in common with ourselves. It is natural to seek out kindred spirits, but it seems that such seeking should be balanced with a vulnerability to chance encounters, to mystery, and yes, even to embarrassment and disappointment.
[Read Jill Lynne's thoughts on "Monologists" and conversation on
The Huffington Post
.]
Perhaps the path back to the art of conversation will feel artificial, but I believe that we as individuals and as communities have much to gain by taking small steps toward that achievement. My landlady said that one of her characteristic conversations starters if she’s met a couple is, “How did you two meet?” I like to use, “So how did you end up here?”
Listening attentively to the story of a stranger and sharing our own experiences has the potential to create surprising connections, challenge our assumptions and heal loneliness. We might hear life from a perspective we didn’t know existed or from an angle we had all boxed up into a too-neat package. We might find that we have a skill that can help solve a problem or an unearthed passion that’s been patiently waiting to be discovered. We might see God.
And perhaps in learning to be genuinely curious and boldly polite in our conversations with strangers, we will cultivate skill to approach important subjects with those we love—to express concern for a grandmother’s health, to let a brother know we love him too much to watch drinking cloud his judgment, to ask a married friend about a friendship that seems to be supplanting her primary relationship, to learn from a mother how to pass through a spouse’s mid-life crisis with grace and commitment. We can glean from those around us the things that otherwise are limited to an online discussion board or a magazine article. It is promised that when we knock, the door will open, but what’s on the other side, we can only imagine until we make the first move.
-----
Do you agree that in our current setting we tend to only connect with those who have common interests? How is this a good or bad thing in terms of collaboration, diversity or perspective, etc?
-----
Editor’s Notes:
This article was first published in Catapult magazine; it has been used by permission.
The artwork above was produced by the illustrator Milli-Jane.
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Comments
Randy Heffner
Kirstin - Thanks for the thoughts. Good stuff. It makes me think about my own conversation-challengedness. Sometimes talk flows so easily. Other times, dead air. Besides monologists, another wrong direction is the quizologist — poking you with one question after another. I want to get my heart and mind around this stuff. Perhaps it works like this (I'm making this up on the fly; please someone tell me if there's something like it out there):
1. Mutual-centeredness: Jill Lynne points out the monologist's self-centeredness, and there are lots more self-centered ways. Other-centeredness is critical, but if I'm not involved, it can be distancing. I think being mutually centered on loving others and (as) myself feeds a greater passion for connection. If we don't truly deep down care, it's hard to go anywhere with a conversation.
2. Awareness of others: Sure, sometimes I've gotta keep my head in the laptop to make a deadline, but is my mutual-centeredness strong enough to keep me always aware of the incredible beauty in the humans around me? We're together. Here. Now. Ain't that fun?!
3. Innocuous invitation: A personal question to a stranger easily raises the "What do they want?" barrier, but an innocuous comment about our current shared situation can invite a connection (On a plane: "Ah. . .it's good to be headin' home.").
4. Connection and transition: If they take it up, perhaps there's an interesting related point that transitions beyond the invitation ("I saw something like that in this movie. . .").
5. Deepening conversation: If the other's demeanor in the transition seems to invite more, maybe there's another level to take it. If so, mutuality says that, in and via the conversation, I'll love them and validate their human value, and also that I'll truly want to be enriched by our contact. What might I learn from them, whoever they are? Respect and love for them says that, if they're interested, perhaps they might catch something from me, too, but I won't force it. On the other hand, if their demeanor says there's no deeper level to go, short and beautiful connections speak life, too.
What's missing? How can we make this thought model for connection better?
hazel b
My hope is that memories of grandpa (or for my 20's & 30's age children, their mom & dad) can be one tool to bring conversation into real life for the younger tech savvy generation. I appreciate your mention of the broadening effect of real connections via technology and the fears that hold us back from coffee shop chatter.
I notice my own tendency to withhold my last name on responses like this one for reasons of similar fears, especially now that search engines are powerful enough to get to photos of our front doors. Thanks, Goodle Earth.
Thank you for an insightful piece.
hazel behrens
Randy - great to share the same planet with you even if we never ride the same plane.
See, I have gotten bolder already.
Thoughtful breakdown of conversation starter - reminds me of an African tribal greeting that roughly translates to "I see you," an acknowledgment of our shared humanity.
"If the other's demeanor in the transition seems to invite more, maybe there's another level to take it." Transition is a helpful word. We aren't making a commitment in the early stages of conversation. The potential exists to move - transit - into something more.
Sean
What an uncommonly deep piece, and how cool is the conversation already taking place in the comments section!
Erik Lokkesmoe
Great article. Thanks for the challenge.
Daud
Great stuff. I have always struggled with speaking, but I am seeing how important it is not only sharing God's love but also loving our neighbor. How do you suppose one avoids being the quizologist?
Randy Heffner
Hazel - I understand the hesitancy. It
is
a bit of risk to be publicly known. It's appropriate to be careful online. On the other hand, I feel closer to you knowing your last name.
Daud - Beyond the old wisdom about asking open-ended questions instead of yes-no questions, my first thought is to offer a bit of yourself in the conversation. Just don't ask the next question, but instead say something personal relating to the other's last answer. There are some open-ended questions that invite only answers, and some that invite dialog because the mutuality in the question means that you'll have thoughts and perspectives whatever their answer. My second thought is that it may be that the other doesn't really want to keep talking (clues might be short answers, not looking at you), in which case the loving way to avoid being a quizologist is to gracefully shut up.
DB Beem
Wrapped up in Kristin's article, I think is the notion that we should be hospitable to strangers. One way that we can be hospitable is by engaging them and meeting them where they are.
For me, not engaging in conversation and speaking with the stranger is really about my own fears, my desire to remain safe and to avoid any chance of rejection. This is why, for me, having conversation with a stranger is really an act of faith. I want to trust in God and so I am working to extend myself and talk to people who I would otherwise ignore. I sometimes pray to God to bring people to me and I ask for the faith to respond to others. Maybe I will be blessed? Maybe God can use me to bless them? Maybe I will learn something new? Maybe I make a new friend? Who knows what can happen? The possibilities are endless. It does make the day a little more exciting as well.
Brad
As regards conversations with men, of which I am one, I have little difficulty. God has cultivated in me a deep delight for taking conversational risks with guys, be they stranger or confidant.
What intrigues me is the section commenting on our overly-sexualized culture. I know this is true because I often find myself unable to enjoy any level of conversation with women other than my wife because I am afraid I will enjoy it too much...or because she'll think I'm enjoying her too much...or others will think that I'm enjoying her too much...or maybe I AM enjoying her to much...my God, have I fallen in love with another woman?...is this lust?...did I just commit adultery on my wife?...RUN AWAY!!!
You get my point.
Sometimes, the pressure of moral integrity drives out our ability to enjoy one another and embrace the image and likeness--dare I say, beauty--of God in one another, without feelings of guilt and shame.
Maybe, it's because we actually do want something from each other, and when we get it, we like it, and it freaks us out because we are so unaccustomed to it...or we fear it is illicit in some way. "If I enjoy this, it must be getting out of control. DANGER! DANGER!" Make something taboo and it will tantalize you, make you crave it more.
Am I making sense here? Thoughts? Anybody?
Jeff Scott
I couldn't agree with you more, on this, and any parent of any teenager will verify that communication is, at very least, strained, for the next generation. I also feel that digital communication is not real communication.
Robyn Morrison
Yes. I agree with your comments. I also believe that the internet and social media could connect us with people with differing points of view, even people who disagree with us, even our perceived enemies.
Blogs are also a potential tool for conversation - especially when we share our comments.
So much potential for dialog beyond differences, and yet I see mostly silos.
Now where is this more true than within organized religion (Christianity for certain). Thanks for this conversation.
Randy Heffner
Jeff - Can you expand a bit on what you mean when you say "real communication"? I would certainly agree that face-to-face trumps digital for (potential) depth of connection, but I've had some strong and deep relational connections via digital channels, too. . .
Skully DeLeeuw
Kristin,
Could the lost art of conversation be pointing to the deeper need of relationship? I mean, we are relational people. God created each and every one of us with this longing. Was your landlord looking for conversation or did she need something a little more in terms of a connection, association, or involvement? That’s one of the definitions of relationship isn’t it? Conversation is a way of filling a need for relationship.
I love the illustration of your grandfather’s and I know my father in-law is the same way. I’ll speak for my father in-law here. He can speak to anyone and either gender very comfortably and definitely without any ulterior motives or sexual agenda. He just really likes to have conversation and genuinely wants to know others. Now, I’m not disputing the fact that our society tends to be over-sexualized and this could foster some fear. But how is it your grandfather’s and my father in-law can pull off conversations with anyone and not have this be an issue?
Is it because we have lost the art of conversation? Or have our unspoken expectations and fears created a paradoxical view of relationship? Are we secure with our own identity to live with out confusion, indifference, or fear of the stranger?
Mike Myatt
I really enjoyed this post. I find most of the problems today don't actually stem from holding different views, but rather the inability of those holding differing opinions to have challenging conversations. Conversation among those who share all of the same opinions doesn't do much to sharpen one's mind. The following post reflects my thoughts on the subject at hand:
http://www.n2growth.com/blog/perception-matters
Jonathan Merritt
Randy: You've offered some great comments here. I'm particularly struck by your advice on not becoming a quizologist: "Just don't ask the next question, but instead say something personal relating to the other's last answer." I often just run down my list of questions to sound engaged, but it never moves beyond shallow banter.
Robyn: I'd love to know what the conversational positives/negatives are when it comes to social networking...
Jm
Raja Sandor
I think we limit ourselves by being concerned with intentions. I think if we took the situation (of striking up a conversation) at face value we would open ourselves up to spreading our interests. Obviously, do this appropriately, but if we interacted with our fellow "man" we could connect in more ways. We would limit our friends or people we talk to, to people with our interests, but anyone that is interesting. In my brief experiences so far in LA, I've found if I give a person a chance to be interesting, they probably will be, even if it's in a way completely foreign to me. If we wonder at the intentions of a person (because we do not see the immediate connection) we are restricting the conversation, a great deal.
Michael Lee Stallard
Lovely article, Kirstin. I'm looking forward to reading more.
Not that I've figured it all out by any means but I'd like to share why I believe we should make an effort to connect with all the people God places in our lives, even those we come in casual contact with each day. Although naturally introverted, I'm trying to become intentional about connecting after my family and I experienced how staying connected to God, family and friends provided a sense of peace and joy that helped us make it through my wife's battles with breast and advanced ovarian cancer. Today she is cancer free and has been now for more than seven years.
In John 17 Jesus prays passionately for unity among all believers and for them to remain in Him as He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. Jesus says that this when this Divine unity is expressed in the lives of believers it shows the world that God sent HIm and the God loves us. I believe what Jesus is saying here is that a very powerful force is at work in this Divine unity. This unity comes when God produces the fruit of the Spirit in our lives, the most important fruit of which is love.
Although I often fall short, I'm trying to tap into God's Divine love that connects us with others and develops unity. I'm making an effort to stay connected with God through worship, prayer, Scripture reading, reflecting and writing, reading books that glorify God, serving others and enjoying the beauty of God's character expressed in art and creation. These things are my life line. They help me stay connected with God so that He brings the love and joy in my heart that I long for but was not able to manufacture through my own efforts. Earthy material pleasures and status that held the allure of providing joy were, in reality, illusory, empty promises. In the end they brought only disappointment, loneliness and pain. In contrast, God's love is real. It has helped me become the husband, the father, the friend, the citizen I've wanted to be but could not become on my own. But for God alone I can do nothing.
When filled with God's love, I want to share the source of my joy with others. I'm looking for ways to be friendly, to help others, especially those who are down, lonely or struggling in some way. Just as Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, I've found those who struggle thirst for God's goodness. righteousness and love. The surprise of it all is that the more I give, the more God blesses me with joy and peace in my own life. It's been life changing, really.
With best wishes and warmest regards,
Michael
Chris Donato
Good article, Kirsten. As someone whose second office is the local coffee shop, I find myself all too part of the problem. I've had a handful of convos there, but almost always with fellow men. When it's with women, it's almost always because my little boys are with me.
I will say that most of those conversations are with folks with whom I have very little in common (except good coffee), and I find those the best of the bunch.
Randy Heffner
Brad - You are making sense. There
is
danger. I very much like your phrase, "the pressure of moral integrity" and your expression of it as a danger to embracing God's Beauty. There's danger in over-
and
under-stressing purity ("Do not be excessively righteous. . .Do not be excessively wicked" —
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+7:16-17&version=NASB"
target="online_refs">Eccl 7:16-17).
I wouldn't want to minimize the danger, but it seems to me that we overemphasize safety, thinking that avoidance = purity, and we become insular. I take Jesus' comment on adultery not as a broadening of the rules defining sin but rather as a telling of where the real sin actually is and always has been: In the ugly deformation of our hearts. If our hearts are bent so that they will lust, actual lusting is merely the manifestation of latent sin. We could avoid mixed conversation for years with zero actual lusting and zero change to the state of our hearts, and our sin would remain, still latent, still ugly. I know of no commands to pursue safety.
Exposure can strengthen us if, embracing the danger, we remain fully aware, in prayer and trembling. Living the tension between enjoying an innocent masculine-feminine connection and that connection going too far, if we remain humble and open to correction from the Word (and others), we see more clearly the beauty of the innocent connection and the ugliness in going too far. Exposure can be, if you will, practice that makes our "senses trained to discern good and evil" (
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%205:12-14&version=NASB"
target="online_refs">Heb 5:14). Gradually it can shrink our latent sin, reforming and restoring our hearts toward God's image. At least, I take something like this to be a process by which God writes His laws on our hearts (
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31:27-34&version=NASB"
target="online_refs">Jer 31:33).
So, I say talk about it with your wife and then enter into the conversations to find and live God's Beauty more fully.
Brad
Randy -- Thanks for your feedback. We're on the same page. As a recovering Legalist, I've spent much time "erring on the side of caution," and you're right about one thing: it does nothing to kill sin in the human heart. My experience is that it exacerbates it.
I appreciate your word about embracing potentially risky opportunities with "prayer and trembling."
I can do nothing apart from him. I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
Kirstin VG-R
Thanks for the great conversation, folks. I think this thread challenges the notion that digital conversation is somehow "un-real." A couple of other things come to mind, mainly borrowed ideas.
"Listening is a rare happening among human beings. You cannot listen to the word another is speaking if you are preoccupied with your appearance or impressing the other, or if you are trying to decide what you are going to say when the other stops talking, or if you are debating about whether the word being spoken is true or relevant or agreeable. Such matters may have their place, but only after listening to the word as the word is being uttered. Listening, in other words, is a primitive act of love, in which a person gives self to another’s word, making self accessible and vulnerable to that word." (William Stringfellow, qtd. in Everyday Apocalypse by David Dark)
Stringfellow's words ring especially true in the current polarized political context. Also, I've come to understand more that, as an introvert, solitude is an energizing necessity for conversation.
"The only justification for a life of deliberate solitude is the conviction that it will help you to love not only God but also other men. If you go into the desert merely to get away from people you dislike, you will find neither peace nor solitude; you will only isolate yourself with a tribe of devils." (Thomas Merton in New Seeds of Contemplation)
I'd be interested in hearing what others have discovered about how the places where they live are (or aren't) conducive to conversation, especially with people who are different from ourselves. For our part, we've been talking a lot lately about how life in our small, rural town with a Main Street storefront shop provides encounters that wouldn't happen in a place where populations are more segregated by income level, interests, age, etc. For example, the mentally ill guy from a local group home who spends his days walking the streets and comes in for our free coffee--learning how to be conversant with him, to understand his jokes, to recognize his signs of a "bad day," to reconfigure our donation jar so he can't steal the money (rather than kicking him out) all feels like it's made us both more human. And the very structure of store fronts, open doors and walkable neighborhoods helps make it possible. How well does your neighborhood function in this respect?
Pat Y
The more accepting our culture has become, the pickier we seem to be. You're right --we are losing our ability to take part in the community around us.
Ken Meyers
Insightful article and follow-up comments. Forgive my offering this out of some writing I am working on just today...
The modernity approach to faith formation is based on a propositional methodology. The post-modernity approach to faith formation is founded on a connectional methodology. Let me offer my persuasion on this.
The propositional approach requires the regurgitation of church propositions before entry into church. It is as if there is a pre-condition for association (not to be confused with membership). The connectional approach honors all people by inviting them into conversations that connect their stories in the common quest toward finding purposeful lives.
Examples: in the propositional mode, faith formation centers around agreement with the basic propositions or tenets or doctrines, such as, Mary is a virgin, the Bible is inerrant, homosexuality is a sin, or whatever tenet a church may determine. Whist in the Baptist tradition such tenets are locally established, it remains that such deterministic faith formation is out of step with a culture that no longer holds the church as absolute harbinger for truth.
On the other hand, in the connectional mode, faith formation honors the diverse ways in which people might be connecting the dots for finding order and meaning in life. Such endeavors do not find propositions helpful. Rather, the common human pursuit to make sense of life is open. It is the task of the church is to bring these various streams of conversation and stories into community, regardless of their origins.
All people are looking for meaning and purpose in life. We all get at this differently. As people of faith, Christians form and order their lives after the model of Jesus. But our modernity notions that this worldview is of major influence no longer holds. The church must think differently. The church must be in the world and ask some form of questions like these:
• What is your story?
• What is important to you?
• What is the purpose of your life?
• How do you find meaning in life?
• What orders your life?
• Why do you do what you do?
• Where have you seen God?
• Who is Jesus to you?
Anthony Grubb
Your closing question seems a good summary of the article and entirely fitting for discussion:
"Do you agree that in our current setting we tend to only connect with those who have common interests? How is this a good or bad thing in terms of collaboration, diversity or perspective, etc?"
Interestingly, I found this article while hearing some awkward conversations in a coffee shop, which led me to google "the lost art of conversation." Whether this implies familarity or commonality, I had both the title and the opening setting for this article, and my next experience also followed suit when a "family patriarch"--or more precisely, a matriarch--in fact, the grandmother of a barista--struck up a conversation with me--and to the barista's minor embarrassment.
But first, I would argue that the comedian mentioned within the article has a poor sense of boundaries, lacks propriety and totally misunderstands levels of social engagement and steps to meaningful intimacy. While these "qualities" provide the necessary punch and surprise for a comic routine, he adds nothing helpful to the discussion--but rather confuses it!. On the contrary, generations have known that a cup of coffee is an easy, nonthreatening way to meet, very noncommittal whatever the social agenda--less involved than a meal, and far less involved than a meeting at either's house for any other steps in relationship growth with select candidates--and I'm biting my tongue--my contribution to a more pleasant conversation. ;-)
Okay, the question has gotten stale, I'd better repeat it (again):
"Do you agree that in our current setting we tend to only connect with those who have common interests? How is this a good or bad thing in terms of collaboration, diversity or perspective, etc?"
In answer to the question, first, we have to understand what actually constitutes a community, a culture, or a society. Throughout history, while variations have always existed within cultures--and have provided rich conversational depths to mine, at society's very core--and exactly what we are observing people desire and actually need--is a set of agreed upon values, mores, and expectations that pave the way and smooth out social and business relationships.
As a matter of course, our daily routines are often filled with more diversity and collaboration in the workplace--and even in our homes and leisure settings--than we really care to dredge up again in our off time--and so the retreat to those more familiar with our technological channels.
As others have said, let's restate in a non-threatening way: Our post-modern culture has lost its base. In fact, it has lost any overt agreement that a base is needed or can be found--that there are behaviors, actions and beliefs that are absolutely right and wrong--and in the confusion (and while many of us deny we hold an overt set of absolute values), we instinctively look for the community--the commonality--we long for, where people treat us right, agree with us more than disagree with us, who stimulate our thinking with new experiences and ideas, who give us good strokes when we need them, and who have the capacity to look our strengths and weaknesses squarely in the eye, love us, accept us, and provide us the same window into their own souls. This is what we long for. This is what we were created to give and receive. If I may be so bold to repeat it; this is what we *need*. This is the stamp of the divine--where we meet God in the people in our lives--and if our luck hasn't been that great in daily face-to-face encounters, you'll likely find us peering into our laptops and phones, maintaining connection as best we can with tried-and-true family and friends--even if only as lost souls with feet stuck fast, totally submerged, and drawing oxygen--sometimes in desperate sips--through a tube that extends somewhere out to the air we breathe.
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